223. Spotlight on Indiana Jones with Brandon Kleyla

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With the release of Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny last year, the popular franchise has concluded with Harrison Ford donning his trademark hat for the last time. This feels like the perfect time to discuss everything Indy for Disney’s theme parks. The perfect guest for this adventure is Brandon Kleyla, who’s been a devoted fan since a young age. He also directed the documentary IndyFans and the Quest of Fortune and Glory about well…fans of Indy.

Brandon is back for this episode of the Tomorrow Society Podcast to talk about why he connects to this franchise so strongly. We dive into all the Indy attractions starting with the Indiana Jones Epic Stunt Spectacular. Brandon first saw that show when he was six and has been hooked ever since. Our next stop is the Indiana Jones Adventure, which remains one of the most popular Disneyland attractions. Brandon was able to work on that attraction and connect with Tony Baxter about their Indy fandom.

After talking about the coasters in Paris and Tokyo, Brandon gives his thoughts on Indy possibly replacing Dinosaur at Disney’s Animal Kingdom. We conclude this episode with a look at the Dial of Destiny. Brandon describes a cool experience at the premiere and his thoughts on the movie. Did he connect with seeing old-man Indy in 1969 yelling at his neighbors and teaching uninterested students? We also cover the time-travel plot, a lot of de-aging, and how this fits within the overall franchise.

Show Notes: Brandon Kleyla

Check out everything that Brandon Kleyla is doing over at traderbrandon.com.

Follow Brandon Kleyla on Instagram at @trader_brandon.

Make a one-time donation to the Tomorrow Society and buy me a Dole Whip!

Transcript

Brandon Kleyla: We stood on the carpet and watched, there’s Harrison, there’s John Rhys-Davies, there’s Ke, there’s Karen Allen. I mean, it was like this is the end of our journey. And then we went into the theater and then they opened the curtain and there’s John Williams in the full orchestra playing in front of us. So all of that, I honestly feel I should have got up and left after the orchestra was done and just stopped there.

Dan Heaton: That is Brandon Kleyla, who’s back to talk about everything Indiana Jones. You’re listening to The Tomorrow Society Podcast.

(music)

Dan Heaton: Hey there, thanks for joining me here on Episode 223 of the Tomorrow Society Podcast. I am your host, Dan Heaton. We’re doing something a bit different in this episode and focusing entirely on Indiana Jones. And when I thought about who would be someone who could talk about all the attractions, Indiana Jones, that we’ve ever had in the parks, plus the new film Dial of Destiny, I only thought of one person, Brandon Kleyla, who was on the show a few years ago talking about his career, Trader Brandon, his work on Trader Sam’s. So much cool stuff.

Brandon directed a documentary Indyfans, which was all about fans of Indiana Jones, has been a lifelong fan and it’s definitely played a role in getting him into the theme park industry. So we talk about all the attractions, Epic Stunt Spectacular, Indiana Jones Adventure, the roller coasters, and of course the upcoming possibility of Indiana Jones arriving at Disney’s Animal Kingdom. And then Brandon gives his thoughts on the Dial of Destiny. Lots of Indiana Jones. If you’re a fan of this franchise or any of the attractions, I think you’re going to enjoy this episode. So let’s get right to it. Here is Brandon Kleyla.

(music)

Dan Heaton: Brandon, thank you so much for coming back to the podcast. This is going to be fun.

Brandon Kleyla: Yeah, no, this will be great, Dan. Thanks for having me.

Dan Heaton: Oh, for sure. Well, we’re going to talk about everything Indiana Jones. We’re going to address the latest film. We’re going to talk about attractions because I couldn’t think of a better person to talk with about this with the new film and the franchise sort of ending. We’ll see. But I’d love to even go back. I know you have so much history with the character. How did you originally connect with Indiana Jones as a character in the films?

Brandon Kleyla: Sadly enough, it was connected through the stunt show at Disney/MGM Studios. That was my first introduction to the character. I had not seen the films, I knew nothing about it, but this nice big, fancy new park was opening when I was six years old, and we went and I stood there and I cried and screamed and kicked because it was loud and explosive and I had no clue what I was watching. And I could still tell you exactly where I was sitting when my dad said, we got to go home and watch some movies. So that was it. Then obviously went back to the park and fell in love and watch it every time we go and watch it every time I can. But yeah, it’s all because of the parks, so it’s kind of a fitting thing for me.

Dan Heaton: Well, yeah, I mean, so the Stunt Show, awesome, still playing, but what was it about that that connected with you so strongly beyond just being very loud?

Brandon Kleyla: You mean once I knew what the heck I was watching?

Dan Heaton: Yeah, once, I guess. Yeah, because that would’ve been ‘89 when it came out. So Raiders and Temple of Doom would’ve been out, and then Last Crusade came out that year, so that was probably out too.

Brandon Kleyla: It was wild because at that time there weren’t any attractions. There wasn’t a Temple of the Forbidden Eye, there wasn’t a Temple of Peril or any of that. So it was the only thing you got. You got the stunt show and you got the Great Movie Ride, and at six years old when you’re watching those movies and also being at the time, like you said, Last Crusade was out. So I remember going to the theaters and watching that, and then not long after that, you had Young Indy on tv, which was a big deal. So it was kind of a little golden era of Indy and to hit it when you’re six years old is like, holy smokes. I mean, it was huge. So yeah, it was just a perfect timing thing.

Dan Heaton: It’s crazy to me too to think about because there were a decent amount of stunt shows that now no longer exist, but the Indiana Jones Stunt Show is still playing, and I wondered even with everything, when everything shut down, if they would use that as a reason to not do it, but they keep it rolling and it’s still going strong. Why do you think that one has stuck around compared to that type of show is very common in the ‘80s and ‘90s? Not really anymore.

Brandon Kleyla: That’s probably one reason it is still around. I mean, is the fact that they aren’t. So the more that disappear, the more unique of an experience those shows become. When I came over to Universal was to do Waterworld for the fourth time in our park in Beijing, China, because regardless of what you think of the film, and as always, I think it’s a great movie. I love it. The show is amazing and the show is still going strong and a huge guest satisfier. But I think yet to your point, the fact that there aren’t a lot of these types of shows around anymore makes them all the cooler and more unique and more impressive. Then also I feel like it’s too expensive for them to get rid of it.

Dan Heaton: Yes. What are they going to do with that giant space?

Brandon Kleyla: I feel like it’s way too expensive for them when you now having worked on a stunt show, when you think about all of the infrastructure at the Indy show of the gas tanks, and it would cost a fortune for you to tear that show out. That’s my thought now is yeah, no, it’ll always be there. It costs way more to take it out than to put something new in.

Dan Heaton: Well, I have to say, while you mentioned Waterworld last time we talked, I had not seen it yet. I was there last summer and actually kind of dragged my family to it. They were like, why are we going to see this Water World Show? It was incredible.

Brandon Kleyla: It’s an amazing show.

Dan Heaton: I had put something on our agenda, basically, I’m going to rave about Water World for a few minutes just because, like you said, even that more than Indy, I feel like when you’ve got the plane crashes through and all the, well, just the fact that it’s in water and all that, it’s one of those where I think, wow, it’s crazy to think about with Indy and this, that those are done every day because the amount of money and also the talented people, the people working on these shows are incredible.

Brandon Kleyla: It’s an insane show and having done one, it’s a hard show, and like you said, water is really unreliable and throwing a giant airplane at an audience untethered to anything is a wild, it’s an insane thought to begin with, but the fact that we pull it off is amazing. I know we’re talking about Indy, but I feel like Waterworld is probably the best stunt show there has been just because it’s so insane. The fire, and I mean, the Indy show is amazing.

I like the Indy show from the point of view of how it’s structured, the fact that the giant temple sets are the largest moving set pieces in the world to date, that move as many times as they do, and then you move the Cairo set, the way it’s structured is phenomenal from a theme park design standpoint. But yeah, Waterworld is just insane, and the fact that we keep doing it is just amazing to me.

Dan Heaton: Yeah, it’s in Beijing and like we talked about in the last episode, just the whole little land and the restaurant.

Brandon Kleyla: It just keeps getting bigger. Yeah, it keeps getting bigger every time, which is great. It should.

Dan Heaton: For sure. Well, circling back to you referenced Last Crusade and Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, it seems like you were totally the right age for that. How did those connect with you so strongly? I mean, I think those hit right at the time when you would’ve been the right age for it.

Brandon Kleyla: Watching Young Indy where Indy is the same age as you, that’s a huge, that was a weird, awesome thing that made him relatable. You were like, oh, well, he’s like me. He’s eight. That was wild. And going to Pizza Hut and getting the Young Indy Collector Cup and Compass, that sort of stuff. Yeah, it was just the right place, right time. It was kind of like growing again with ‘89 over at Universal, when you’ve got the Ghostbusters live show and you’ve got Ghostbusters 2 in theaters and the cartoon is on TV and the toy section of Toys R Us is larger than any Star Wars section ever. I mean, it was just this. That was the time to be there. So yeah, it’s crazy.

Dan Heaton: Jumping ahead a bit to 2008, around the time of the fourth Indina Jones Film, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull came out, I know you directed a documentary called Indyfans and the Quest for Fortune and Glory, where you were still pretty young at the time, but you went around and talked to lots of fans and other people involved like Tony Baxter and others involved with Indy. What was that like for you then becoming a fan and then also shooting this documentary about people that love the character and franchise?

Brandon Kleyla: That was a fun time too. That was around the time when there was a lot of fan documentaries being made. There was Star Wars fanboy, or not fanboy, but I want to say Star Wars, but I don’t know why I want to say that. The One Ring, there was a lot of fan documentaries about certain IP fan bases, and I just jumped very quickly on Indy. I was like, I’m going to do Indy, I’m going to do Indy. And it was a lot of fun to do. Then we had a great reception from people that worked on the films, and I thought it would be fun to see how far we could push it with people that worked on the films and get their thoughts on the fans.

What’s it like seeing 5,000 guys at Comic-Con dressed in a costume you designed? That’s a fun thing. And then dial into certain fans and how they’ve been inspired by the character, why they got into archeology because of this character, why they became a filmmaker because of this character. But yes, ultimately getting, that was the first time I met Tony and we interviewed Tony, and then that is what started up to this day, friendship and mentorship through my time at WDI and all of that. So yeah, we have Indy to thank for that.

Dan Heaton: Well now, hey, it connects directly to your career and the other attractions. Well, I have to ask you, because we’re going to talk later about Dial of Destiny. Looking at it now, what do you think of Crystal Skull as a film? Does it get an unfair bad rap or not?

Brandon Kleyla: Oh boy. Oh boy. Everyone, fast forward 15 minutes. Look, don’t edit out that pause. That pause is very strategic. No, it’s good. My angle is always the films ended with them riding into the sunset. Now, with that said, we have extracurricular things. We have a fourth film, we have a fifth film, we have video games, we have all the books, we have all these other things, and some of them click and some of them work, some of them don’t, but it doesn’t damage the three. So I had always been on the mind of, my God, Crystal Skull is unwatchable and drives me insane.

Then I saw Dial of Destiny, and I went and I said, boy, I’ve been really hard on Crystal Skull this whole time. I really feel bad. I have a friend that did graphics on Crystal Skull, and for years, he goes, I’m telling you, you’re going to owe me an apology one day. And he was the first person I texted after watching Dial, and I said, I have to apologize for the last 15 years of giving you crap about this. I don’t think it’s perfect by any means, but I do feel now that there are certainly moments that feel right.

Dan Heaton: That’s interesting. I just want to fast forward, but no, I’m going to hold off on Dial of Destiny for now, but I’m just so interesting. I actually, I should have gone back and watched Crystal Skull before I did this because again, in my head it’s kind of like, oh boy, that was a lot to take. But comparing it to the new film, I wonder how they would connect.

Brandon Kleyla: There’s definitely bad things in Crystal Skull. I mean, let’s not lie to ourselves. I mean, there’s some bad stuff and then there’s a few things you go, yeah, that fits, that checks out, that feels right. Yeah. And then, yeah, I don’t know. I try to be positive. I try not to be a negative person, but yes.

Dan Heaton: Let’s talk about the parks. That’s what we’re here about. So I know when we talked last time, you mentioned that you started working at Disneyland as a Jungle Cruise Skipper, and when you were there, of course you’ve got access. Hey, basically right next door is this incredible still to this day, Indiana Jones Adventure ride. So how cool was that to have it right there? Basically when you’re there.

Brandon Kleyla: That’s great. And after X amount of time at your first attraction, you can cross train to your second attraction, and Adventureland shares a pool of cast members with Frontierland. So I had been a Skipper for a while, and then they said, hey, we want to cross train you over at Big Thunder, which they kind of pulled the more alert people onto the tougher rides. And I said, Ooh, yeah, no, I don’t want to go to Big Thunder. And they were like, but we really would like you at Big Thunder.

I went, ooh, no. I said, I’m far too ginger to stand in the sun all day, but the inside indoor ness of the temple sounds great. So I totally played the “I’m too pale to stand in the sun” card and cross-trained at Indy. So I got to work at Indy for about six or seven months before leaving, and it’s amazing. It’s wild and crazy and unbelievable. Then returning there when working at WDI to fix a couple things and tweak stuff and pull some props out to replicate for Sam’s and all that is, yeah, you walk in there and it’s a great, you’re walking into greatness. You just know it.

Dan Heaton: So I mean, it’s still, to this day, 20, 28 years, if I’m doing my math right, 29 years later, one of the most popular attractions in the park, if not beyond Rise of the Resistance, the most popular attraction, similar to what I said about the Stunt Show, why do you think it’s held up so well where I feel like it just keeps in new generations that love it.

Brandon Kleyla: Yeah. Well, I think it’s because of Tony and it’s done from what you would want to experience, and you look at, okay, it’s an Indiana Jones ride. Well, what do I want as a fan to see? So the Boulder, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in there, but gosh darn it, we want to see it. We want to experience that.

I don’t know why every temple in the South America had boulders, so it checks a lot of boxes off from that point of view, but it’s also just a damn good ride. I mean, it’s timeless like the films, because it doesn’t go in and be like, we’re going to focus on the fourth movie. We’re going to focus on this. It doesn’t lock itself in, which I think is a lot of my issues with Rise. But yeah, Indy is much more timeless.

And there’s one character in the ride, there’s one character in the pre-show, and they’ve always been with you through multiple films. It’s not a specific thing. And yeah, the ride system is amazing. The location’s amazing. The queue is amazing. I mean, it’s just, there’s no element in it that fails. Everything is turned up to 11 from the second you walk off of the Adventureland main drag. It’s game on at a top level of execution until you get off, I mean, until you’re back into Adventureland. So yeah, it’s a rare opportunity. It’s one of those that you kind of go, boy, I wonder if we’ll ever see that again. But no, I think that’s why it sticks is it’s just that damn good.

Dan Heaton: And the timeline thing is interesting. I know in Tokyo, I’ve not been there. They call it the Temple of the Crystal Skull, but I don’t think it’s that different. But then they were trying to kind of make it its own thing, but then obviously we’re going to talk about a little bit that they had in the future. But I don’t think they ever really, with anything, they don’t really need to lock it into the time. Right. Because Indy’s kind of, even the films, it’s like you look at it and you’re like, wait, all these things happened during the few years of World War II? It doesn’t really matter. It’s just like a pulp story, an adventure story.

Brandon Kleyla: We know the years they happen, but it doesn’t matter because they capture the era of that, which is another kind of issue with Crystal Skull and certainly with Dial where you’re like, I had one of my buddies said, I don’t like knowing that Indie is teaching at a crummy college in New York when I’m alive. That’s weird. Indy lives in this golden age of adventure, this golden era of that, not, well, he is alive in 1969. That’s just strange. Not to say he wouldn’t be, but I don’t know. We need to see it. Right.

Dan Heaton: I totally agree. Another thing too, it’s interesting is Dinosaur at Disney’s Animal Kingdom uses basically the same ride system and same track. And Indy is so much better, and part of it is the movie, and not to just pick on Dinosaur. I do enjoy elements of that ride, but how does Indy fit the ride system? Well, I think it really, the ride system does so much with Indy more than with anything else.

Brandon Kleyla: Well, it’s because it was designed for Indy. I mean, if we go back to the beginning, if we go back to the early days of, I want to say at least early, early ‘80s, probably ‘84ish. But I’ve heard this story several times, and it’s such a crazy, fun, wild story to envision it happening. But the studio was at a lull.

You were looking at Black Hole, you were looking at those types of films, and Tony went to Ron Miller, who was head of the studio at the time and said, look, I know we’re trying to do our own thing, but I really think we need to go talk to George Lucas. Star Wars is a huge hit. We need a win in Tomorrowland. Raiders just came out. It’s a huge thing. At that point, Eisner was coming over to Disney who green-lit Raiders when he was at Paramount.

So it was just a thing. Then there was a luncheon up in Northern California with Tony and George and Walt’s daughter Diane scooping out potato salad. And pretty much they went, yeah, let’s do this at that little barbecue. But then Tony stuck with, but how do we deliver Indy? Right? The technology’s not there. So how do we deliver what we just saw on screen with Raiders?

And it took what Raiders was ’84 for Indy. It took 10 years. It took almost 10 years probably to catch up, but then design that ride vehicle for that specifically. What if we took this car? What if we took this Jeep and it’s on a motion base and we can make it dance? We can make it feel like you’re skidding; we can make it feel like you’re going downstairs. We can make it. And then you write the attraction around that.

A lot of people don’t realize that when you come out of the gates of doom and you take that left into that big vista, if you look down on the floor, there’s a staircase painted, and you feel that as you’re in the Jeep and you hit those bumps going down. So yeah, it’s so good for Indy because it was designed for Indy as opposed to just, hey, give me that. Let’s go get that again. And you’re like, I mean, okay, Dinosaur’s a bumpy ride, that’s fine. But yeah, I mean, when you have the focus to design something brand new for a certain thing, then yeah, it’s always going to be the best on that thing.

Dan Heaton: Well, right. Yeah. I know I’ve always heard that there’s all different things it can do and all that, but I feel like the ride has so much to it, and you go through everything so quickly that like you mentioned with the stairs, I don’t know if I noticed that now I will look for it, but there’s so many little elements that I think you don’t experience because the Dinosaur ride is darker and everything else, but just you can see so much, and there’s always so much going on that it’s impossible to catch everything, which is another reason why it’s so popular still.

Brandon Kleyla: Right. I mean, you can ride it a hundred times and always see something different. I mean, that’s the amazing thing.

Dan Heaton: Well, I wanted to ask again, you mentioned Tony Baxter and your connection to him, because when I was in line for Indy last year, I looked to my left and standing pretty far away is Tony Baxter. He was there for Splash’s last day, and I was like, oh, and I didn’t talk to him, but I’m just saying he’s still so connected to this ride. And just to, like you mentioned the history, but I’m just curious for a little more about your connection with Tony and then just connecting with him over Indy and other things.

Brandon Kleyla: Yeah, no, he actually texted me the other day. His birthday was the other day, and he finally got his new replica of Nurhachi, and he was very excited. So yeah, our text chain is always about usually Indy stuff. It’s like talking to a kindred soul that you’ve always, it’s like talking to yourself in the mirror more or less, especially when it comes to Indy. I mean, every attraction he’s created, I mean, I’m obviously not unique in this, has inspired my life in some way, shape or form from early day Epcot stuff to Indy stuff.

We did Fantasy Faire together in Disneyland. We did Sleeping Beauty Castle Walkthrough together at Disneyland. And it’s amazing. When I was doing Trader Sam’s, I had a couple, I was stuck on a couple design things of angles and trying to figure out how to place some things. And it’s amazing when you can run upstairs and go, hey, can I show you this real quick?

He grabs the paper and his pen and goes, well, what if you did this and this and this? And you go, yep, nope. That would’ve been a lot easier. Okay, thanks, bye. You run back downstairs and go, stop the presses. We got to do this way. And then at the same time, he’s just a big kid that wants to watch Indy movies and buy toys all day long, which is hilarious. But no, he’s a dear friend, a dear, I’ve learned endless amounts from him over the course of my career and still, yeah, it’s still a wild unique experience for me. Again, being a fan of his, I think I have called him once on his phone because I go, who the hell am I to call Tony? So yeah, it’s a wild experience, but very thankful that he’s here.

Dan Heaton: Oh, definitely. No, that sounds awesome. And I understand that. Yeah, I mean, you could call Tony, I give you approval. You can do it. I think you’re on that level.

Brandon Kleyla: I can’t do it. I can’t do it. It’s weird. It’s strange.

Dan Heaton: No, no, I’m good. Alright, well, let’s move on to some roller coasters they made, which I know I’ve talked with one of the model makers for Indiana Jones, who worked on some of the ideas they had where they were going to possibly do a mine car. And there was all these kind of crazy ideas for Disneyland where they were going to reroute things, and they never did those because obviously so much money and just crazy. But then they ultimately did have these coasters, which are kind of like mine cars, but I did ride the one in Paris, Temple of Peril, and they have Raging Spirits in Tokyo. I don’t know. Do you think, I don’t know if you’ve experienced them. I guess that’s my first question. Have you ridden them?

Brandon Kleyla: How I have not gone? My only other park I’ve done internationally is Hong Kong. I have not ridden the others, but I am familiar with them. Yeah, they’re interesting little things because they’re so, I don’t want say they’re, you can obviously tell they were designed on a budget to get a little IP recognition in the park, and that’s fine. But yeah, at least they’re there. At least there’s a little stake of Indy in almost every park, which is great around the world. You want a mine car ride? That’s what we all want. That’s awesome. But yeah, we all look at that original Brian Jowers piece of art with the Jeeps and the mine cars and the train going through, and the jungle boat’s going through, and you go, sweet, mother of God, what is this?

Yhen you look at it from a design aspect and you go, I would destroy half of the park if one ride went down. And that was ultimately what, aside from cost, if the Jungle Cruise went down or the Indy ride went down, you’d have to shut down the trains. You’d have to shut down Jungle. You’d have to shut down the other. If you’ve got to turn the show lights on, you’ve got to shut down four rides, and that’s a big no-no. You don’t want to do that. It’s an amazing piece of art that, yeah, good God, it’s beautiful. But yeah, no, no, no, no, we can’t do that.

Dan Heaton: Yeah. One thing I heard is that they had talked about early on, I’m sure about, well, maybe some people you can choose to go on the mine ride or you can walk this other way. And I mean, as someone who’s worked in the industry logistically giving the guests the choice to kind of pick which one and do different things, is there any way to make that work where we could actually do that?

Brandon Kleyla: I’m going to say no. I’m going to say no. And then say, I would love to figure it out how. Yeah, it’s tricky because you’re relying on your guests to not lock into one all the time, right? You’re relying on them to not go, well, I only go in and ride the mine cars. That’s what I want to do when you need them also to go the other routes and the other ways so that your guest flow is not a mess. So yeah, that would be very difficult. That would be very difficult. I would appreciate the challenge, but that would be difficult.

Dan Heaton: One more thing on the coasters, just I rode the one in Paris, like I said, so rough. So rough. Not that pleasant. But I mean, I know you haven’t experienced, and it is cool to have Indy, and they do have good theming. I give them credit for that, but it does seem a little underwhelming for me to think about just because those rides aren’t beloved. I’m sad to say. I mean, does it diminish Indy at all for you when I mean that they did that, or is it still cool regardless because it’s Indiana Jones?

Brandon Kleyla: No, I think you’re fine. I think a very small percentage is going to walk in and go, hey, wait a minute. This isn’t up to snuff. The majority of guests will go in and go, awesome. Is an Indiana Jones rollercoaster? This is cool. Yeah, it’s a tricky one, and we talk about that all the time at work of the percentage of diehards versus your everyday guests. My outlook is if I can make the 20% of diehards happy, I make everyone happy. So that’s where my brain goes when I design stuff, is focus on the fans, because the average day guests are going to be thrilled no matter what you do.

So you might as well do it right and make your 20% happy too. But yeah, no, I think the majority of guests are going to go and ride it and think it’s awesome and have a great time. And then they’ll go to Disneyland and they’ll ride that and they’ll have a great time, and they’ll know they’re different. But I don’t think they’ll get to the level that we would get.

Dan Heaton: Yeah, you can’t spend hundreds of millions of dollars on an E-Ticket every time for any franchise.

Brandon Kleyla: No, no, you cannot.

Dan Heaton: But that is another reason why Indiana Jones Adventure is so good, because it works for both the diehards and everyone else. It’s one of those rare things where it hits both.

Brandon Kleyla: I could say, unlike Galaxy’s Edge, but we don’t need to.

Dan Heaton: I would love to. Galaxy’s Edge is so interesting to me because in what certain parts work so well in certain other parts. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s real hit or miss.

Brandon Kleyla: Tricky. Yeah, it’s a tricky one.

Dan Heaton: Yeah. Alright, well, we also should talk about there, you were involved in a very famous bar, not even just a bar, but themed environment with Trader Sam’s, but there is also the Jock Lindsay’s Hanger Bar, which I admit I have not spent most time at all, but I think it’s kind of cool that they took a character who was a pilot in Raiders of the Lost Ark and themed a bar there. I mean, I’m curious for your opinion on this or your thoughts.

Brandon Kleyla: I have a funny story about this. So yeah, I was not involved in Jock’s. I was doing Grog Grotto at Polynesian during that era of things happening. So a lot of people think I had my hands in Jock’s. I did not have any hands whatsoever in Jock’s. I would’ve done a couple little things different, mostly propping things that drive me insane as a fan.

And I can say what I pushed back on when we put Indy stuff into Sam’s versus, I don’t think anyone pushed back at Jock’s, but I’ll start the Jock thing with a funny story. Jason Surrell is a dear friend, works right across this parking lot here from me now, and he loves telling the story of originally a fun fact. Originally that location was going to be Trader Sam’s when they announced Disney Springs, and they did their step and repeat wall of all the logos of businesses coming to Disney Springs.

Sam’s was on there, and we pushed and pushed and said, no, no, no, we need to be at the Polynesian. We are a small venue. That’s what makes it work. That’s what makes it click, and it’s the Polynesian for God’s sakes. And ultimately, Lasseter was the one that said, no, it needs to be at the Polynesian. Then everybody followed suit, and that was when they had to do a switch for what is this space that we are building at Springs?

And apparently they were in a meeting and Tom Staggs, who was head of Parks at the time, said, what if we name it after the guy that flies the plane in Raiders, the guy that flies Indy around? And Surrell goes, you mean Jock Lindsay? He’s like, yeah, that guy. Let’s name it after him. And in true, Surrell, Surrell fashion, he goes, if I had said that, you would’ve fired me.

That level of nerdiness that Jason is so known for. So yeah, so they did it, and it works. It’s a fun space. It works. It’s fine. Its trick I feel is, and why it’s not as successful as it should be is its location. It’s a very big space, so you can always get in, but it would’ve done really great at the park next to the Stunt Show and been more intimate in a really a nice space. And mostly because you have no competition there, right?

It’s hard to sell a $20 cocktail when this venue right next to you has happy hour $8 buckets of beer. So that didn’t help them. But no, it’s a fun space. It works in a lot of fun story elements. It kind of drives me insane that every key prop from the film shows up in that one place makes my head explode from a storytelling aspect.

I remember when we did Sam’s, I wanted to put a couple Indy things in there, and we have the voodoo doll from Temple is in there. The map from the Indy ride is in there, and then there’s a whip on the wall. And there was one executive that said, well, let’s make sure we put his hat in there. And I said, absolutely not. There is no way. He’s like, yes, put his hat in there. It’s iconic. And I said, it’s iconic because it never leaves his head. He’s not going to leave it in a random bar somewhere. No. And then it was like, oh, well, that’s a good point.

But yeah, so it kind of drives me crazy when the Hanger bar is home to the idol, the head piece, the ark, you’re like, what is happening? You’re like, I get that you want to see these things, but what in the world is going on new voodoo dolls that we never even saw in the film for Willie and Shorty? And you’re like, what is no. So yeah, that drives me insane from a prop guy aspect. But that’s okay.

The ark is in some warehouse, we know this, but again, the majority of guests, they’re just there to have fun and have a drink. No one’s looking at it like we are, or in this case, probably like me.

Dan Heaton: Well, yeah, you have a unique perspective. Just being someone that’s also worked on Trader Sam’s and done design there.

Brandon Kleyla: It’s a blessing and a curse. Yeah.

Dan Heaton: Well, that’s interesting. Comparing that to Oga’s Cantina, for example. Not to keep bringing up Galaxy’s Edge, but that’s an intimate space with like $20 drinks. But because it’s in Galaxy’s Edge, it’s going to be much more popular probably.

Brandon Kleyla: You can never get in.

Dan Heaton: And even if you get in, it’s tight, it’s intimate, It’s elbow to elbow. Yeah. I had a listener, you kind of referenced it right now, but a listener asked me what your favorite Indy Easter Egg was in Trader Sam’s. So I don’t know, you’ve mentioned the few, but what’s kind of the best thing you feel like you put in there or something?

Brandon Kleyla: The map is pretty fun because I feel like we finally gave guests time to look at it and appreciate it because Chuck Ballou did such an amazing job on that map, and at its location in the queue of the ride, in the little office that you pass, it’s upside down. It’s on a desk, you’re moving. You never get to really see it. So I wanted to make sure we recreated that and put it right at a table where you can sit and really dig into that thing.

It’s a beautiful prop. So that’s one. And then I always laugh about the voodoo doll. I wrote a letter from Short Round to Sam saying that Indy trusts you to take care of this and destroy it properly. And there’s a little letter that says that, but I wrote it with my left hand, so it looks like a little kid wrote it.

So that one just makes me smile. But both of those I feel are completely in story. The voodoo doll has a purpose to be there, and the map also has a purpose because there’s a note on there from Sala trying to drum up business for his tour company. So he’s trying to go see, look at all this. You can see that Chamber of the Future. You can see he’s showing you the map and then says, yeah, make sure I get this back before Indy notices. I’ve taken it out of his office. So yeah, they made sense for me. We didn’t do any in Florida. We’re a different time period and different story here. But yeah, they work in Anaheim, and then there’s only a couple, so it’s not beating you over the head with references.

Dan Heaton: Yeah, I like the fact that there’s a few cool things, but again, it doesn’t shift it where then it’s the Indiana Jones bar or something, which not that that’s bad…

Brandon Kleyla: And they’re not the obvious choices. They’re deep.

Dan Heaton : Yeah. It’s not the Ark.

Brandon Kleyla: And the fact that they’re not the obvious low hanging fruit. Yeah, they’re deep. They’re deep cuts. So that makes it good too.

Dan Heaton: Well, speaking of Florida, at the last Destination D23 event, Disney sort of announced, not really, but sort of announced the Tropical Americas land coming to Disney’s Animal Kingdom, though they seem to still not be a hundred percent on it, and then they referenced Indiana Jones. They play the music, they show it replacing Dinosaur. Not official, not official, but it seems like it’s going to eventually happen. So I’m curious for your thoughts about Indiana Jones likely similar to the California version, but in some way coming to Walt Disney World in that way?

Brandon Kleyla: I think it’s only a matter of time. I think we’ve all said that. I think a lot of people have thought it would replace the Stunt Show. That’s been a rumor for hundreds of years. There’s articles you can find online where it’s Stunt Show closing and you’re like, shut up. So yeah, I think it’s only a matter of time. Dinosaur is, obviously, as we said, the obvious. I mean, it is the same track layout as Anaheim. I know no more than you; I think it would fit. And I think it’d be fine. I think it’d be cool to see how they incorporate the animals and the proper animals around that so we don’t lose the vision of what Animal Kingdom is. But yeah, we’ll see more Indy, is always good. So we’ll find out.

Dan Heaton: And I wasn’t trying to dig for any info. It was more, I was just curious for your opinion, but yeah, it’s weird because they did go to the Amazon Rainforest in Crystal Skull, so they could totally connect that, right? Just really have a Crystal Skull land. That would be perfect, right?

Brandon Kleyla: Sure, sure. I don’t know. You want to dial in on that? Go for it. Yes. But yeah, I mean, you’re not, again, you’re not wrong. Yeah, there’s so many great locations, and it’d be amazing to go into an Indy land and see giant vampire bats and giant bugs. As much as I would despise it. Animal Kingdom doesn’t do a lot with snakes. Get into that. It fits. It makes sense. Dare I say it makes more sense than when we put in Pandora, but Pandora turned out beautifully, so I can’t really, we were all wrong about Pandora.

Dan Heaton: Let’s just say that I was wrong. I know we talked about this the last time, but I was totally wrong. It’s still incredible.

Brandon Kleyla: Oh yeah. No, we all were.

Dan Heaton: Knowing the second movie doesn’t really connect to it, which is good. That’s a good thing.

Brandon Kleyla: Well, the thing, I don’t know if we mentioned this on the last time, but the thing about the land was our land takes place 100 years after wherever he ends up with the films. Yeah, that’s perfect. If you really pay attention with Flight of Passage, the water tribe that came out in Avatar 2 has been in Fight of Passage since we opened. So yeah, it’s all tied in. No, we were all wrong about Pandora.

Dan Heaton: Well, I want to ask you one more thing before we talk about Dial of Destiny, like ideal world. Is there something like an attraction or a land or something from Indy that you think would be really cool to see in a theme park?

Brandon Kleyla: Other than the Pankot Palace Buffet dining experience? Well, that’s cool. That’d be something. That’d be cool. It’d be cool. Yeah, it’s a tricky one. I mean, I would kill to see the Temple of Doom set built at scale, but who wants to go there? Nobody. Terrible ride. That would be, it’s terrible. Yeah, I don’t know. I think that the fact that you could definitely still build the Raven Bar, there should be a Club Obi Wan built somewhere one day. Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely those types of locations that are probably easier than temples and shrines and all of that. Invisible bridges and all of that stuff. Yeah, I think you lean more into the restaurant opportunities that we see.

Dan Heaton: And that’s more common, just what you see. I mean, there’s been rumors, plenty of rumors about different other type of IPs with more a Pirate’s Lounge or a Tower Bar, all those other things that is an easier sell probably because also that they make money, so that helps directly. Well, here we are. We have covered Indy and the parks. We’ve covered your history. Now we get to the new film. So before we talk about what you think of the film, what was your experience like going to see it? You’ve had all the fans, they dress up, all those things. What was that experience like? Actually seeing a new Indy film rather than about the film, but just the experience of it?

Brandon Kleyla: Honestly, I think it ruined the film for me. I got invited to the, it’s funny, but I’m being serious. I got invited to the premiere in Hollywood; I took my dad that started me on this adventure when I was six. So we’ve been doing this for what, 34 years together. And we stood on the carpet and watched, there’s Harrison, there’s John Rhys-Davies, there’s Ke, there’s Karen Allen. I mean, it was like, this is the end of our journey.

Then we went into the theater and then they opened the curtain, and there’s John Williams and the full orchestra playing in front of us. So all of that, I honestly feel I should have got up and left after the orchestra was done and just stopped there and went, I’m good. Because anything that happened after all of that was a blur. You don’t top that. So I feel like they stacked the deck against us a little bit at the premiere.

But yeah, it’s an interesting seeing toys on the shelves again, having that little moment of, hey, it’s Indy time again is always fun. It’s always great. We’re about to get Ghostbusters again and have that moment of, oh, go get your popcorn bucket, ghost trap, which is just fun. It’s cool. And now with my daughter and my nephew and to get to live through their eyes now and see that sort of stuff, it’s like, oh, yeah, this is great. But yeah, I’ve come to it of, I went back and people were like, hey, what about, what’d you think about this scene?

I was like, I have no memory of that scene at all. So I’m like, did I sleep through the movie at the premiere? Was I that guy? Yeah, so it was interesting. But the whole buildup, the red carpet, all that was just phenomenal. And again, in a way of knowing it’s the last film in a way of just saying goodbye to that chunk of your life. And now you can just sit back and go, all right, we’ll watch the movies when we watch ’em, whatever. But that was pretty amazing.

Dan Heaton: That sounds awesome, especially given your fandom. But that whole experience, I mean, have you gone back and watched the movie since that point? Was it a one-time experience?

Brandon Kleyla: Yeah, I watched it the premiere, and I haven’t gone back. I really haven’t. I’ve tried and I just go, what the, yeah, it drives me a little bonkers. I don’t know in what, and I know I’m probably alone in this for the majority, which is fine. That’s usually where I am with my film reviews. I’m usually the one that goes mean.

Dan Heaton: I think there’s all types of responses to this movie. Yeah, proceed.

Brandon Kleyla: It’s one where it’s like, I don’t need to see my childhood hero be a depressed, divorced failure in Brooklyn. I get the real world aspect of it. But you’re like, but I don’t need to see that. Right? I don’t need it. Okay. It drove me crazy that Sallah was driving a taxi cab, and I read an article the other day that John had said basically what I had said, because somebody asked me like, well, what would you have done? I said, well, he would’ve been the head of the Egyptology wing at the Museum of Natural History.

It’s like, you can’t tell me that a guy that spent his life in Egypt digging and found would be a failure. Why is he a failure too? No offense to cab drivers. And then he read an article the other day that I read that John said that he thought that Sala would’ve been, and he named the archeologist.

There was an archeologist that died protecting the collection from ISIS recently over there, and ultimately was killed defending the artifacts of his people. And I’m like, yeah, let’s go all in on that. That’s fine. And to an extent, a lot of people were, oh, they’d never kill Indy. But I was like, but why not? If you have faith in what you’re delivering, do it.

One of the most amazing things, and why I was excited in the beginning was watching Logan that Mangold directed, and I have no affinity for X-Men in any way, shape, or form, but the fact that he killed Wolverine and the fact that that scene at the end was so moving, I was like, God, please, please kill Indy. I need to see that it’s done correctly. Would it have been bad if he had stayed back with what’s his face?

Dan Heaton: Yeah.

Brandon Kleyla: No, that would’ve been kind of cool. It would’ve fit, would’ve made. So I don’t know. I can go on and on and on and on. Yeah, I don’t know. It was a one and done for me. I’m sure I’ll go back at some point, but I don’t know. I have a perfect trilogy. I’ve got books and stories that I like. I don’t need ’em all to be home runs. It’s okay. It doesn’t make me think less of any of it.

Dan Heaton: No, and it’s the same thing where not to again shift as a Star Wars, but I think a lot of people didn’t like grumpy old Luke Skywalker, which I like Last Jedi. But I’m just saying.

Brandon Kleyla: I love Last Jedi.

Dan Heaton: I’m just saying, some people I actually thought it was really well done, didn’t like that. And I think though, that’s similar in a way to Indy where it’s like him with the bat telling the kids to turn down the music and everything. I was just like, really? But I got to ask you about this. This is the thing that jumped out at me the first half hour or so. We see de-aged Harrison Ford and other characters too, and we’ve seen that. We saw it with Samuel Jackson in Captain Marvel, and it’s becoming more common and it has gotten better than it was, or when we saw the kind of creepy Peter Cushing or something. But what’d you think of that? I’m curious. Are your thoughts there?

Brandon Kleyla: I think some shots, I think they spent all their money on the shot in the trailer of them taking the bag off his head. That looks phenomenal. And then he opens his mouth and you go, no money left to fix his voice. Seeing young Indy, but he talks old is weird. And then there’s some shots that you just go, God, that really doesn’t look good.

Then there’s some shots you go, that looks phenomenal. It’s a tough game. I mean, I will give them credit that it’s probably the best de-aging we’ve seen so far. And it will of course only develop and get stronger and better. But it’s tough. You have to know how to shoot it. You have to know to hide it in darkness. Don’t put him in spotlights, don’t focus in it. Don’t get right in his face, cut away when his mouth moves, stuff like that. But yeah, there’s some of it that is genuinely impressive. And then there’s some you’re like cut away, cut away, cut away.

Dan Heaton: Yeah. It was the same way with when he’s riding the horse. There was a scene or two where I was like, no, that doesn’t even look like him. And then other scenes looked very good. It’s just very hit or miss. But I agree. This is a long step from The Irishman where I was like, I watched Robert De Niro looking like 40. And I’m like, no, no. No’s not so much. Don’t do that guys.

Brandon Kleyla: Which again, with The Irishman, you’re like, even if it looked good, he still walks like he’s 80. So it’s like if you’re going to do it, just go all in and get body doubles. Give voice doubles. Just go all the way. Okay.

Dan Heaton: Yeah. Well, I don’t mean to just pick on, I’m kind of picking into the less satisfied things. I didn’t mind the time travel part though, because like you me. And I actually thought that was one of the better parts; I didn’t think they would actually go back. I thought, oh, they’re not going to, which shouldn’t surprise me; I mean, they did it things that were supernatural past.

Brandon Kleyla: Right? They do bizarre things anyhow. That was good. That didn’t bother me at all. I’m not bothered by the refrigerator flying through the air. I mean, those aren’t my issues with the low hanging issues of the majority or never mind. I look at it and go, well, it’s lit wrong. The shot is bad. I look at that stuff. I go, of course he can fly through the air in a fridge. Who cares? Look at everything else he’s done. Of course he can time travel. That’s fine. I don’t care. Let’s do it. I wish it had been a time travel movie. Let’s go. Let’s go back. And it’s young Indy and young Marian, let’s go. Let’s commit. That’d be awesome. Yeah, that’s the least of my issues is time travel.

Dan Heaton: I don’t want to turn this into just us complaining, but you mentioned, because I mean, trying to think of the way I ask this, what elements do you think, like you mentioned since you just said it, the things that really bothered you about it, I guess mean since we’re on it, we might as well dig in while we’re here.

Brandon Kleyla: I think it was just, there was not really a moment in it where I felt the magic of an Indy movie, whether it’s pouring water out of a cup onto your dad’s chest and it heals the bullet, like crazy stuff. But it was so overridden by the grumpy old man, by really I think trying to set Helena up to take the franchise, which you’re like, I don’t care.

Why is this a thing? I would’ve cared if she was Marcus’ daughter. I would’ve cared more; I didn’t need a new batch of characters and for me to really expect to care about them, I care about characters I’ve had for 40 years. So that’s a tough sell. So yeah, there’s just little, I wrote this out on my phone and it looks like a freaking ramblings of a madman. What do you call, what do you call ’em when a serial killer writes up?

Dan Heaton: Manifesto or something?

Brandon Kleyla: There you go. Yeah, it’s bad. It looks like a manifesto. But yeah, it’s a lot of, and again, we deal with it in parks, we deal with it in films. It’s across the board. My favorite line is it’s art. One of us is right. That was their vision for that. Would I do it different? Absolutely. Did anyone ask? Nope. So that’s fine. I can’t, hey, making movies is hard. The fact they get made at all is an accomplishment. They can’t all be winners. They can’t all be godawful. Just the fact that it’s done is amazing. So again, we have a great trilogy. It doesn’t lessen it anymore. Anything they do moving forward, it’s fine. It’s all fine. It’s all good. And people like Dial, good for them. I’m happy for ’em. That’s great. I’m not, no, I don’t. Running around telling people.

Dan Heaton: You’re not on the equivalent of saying, I’m right and they’re wrong. But really it wasn’t that big of a hit in terms of I think what Disney expected. So I mean beyond any issues that you or I have or whatever. Setting aside that, why do you think Indy? Is it a movie theater? Just people aren’t going to the movies because plenty of movies tanked last year. It’s not just Indy. Some did much worse. So I’m curious though, why do you think it didn’t connect as strongly as maybe Disney thought it would?

Brandon Kleyla: I think it’s the time period. I think it’s the oldmanness of it; I think it just didn’t feel like an Indy movie. I think; I mean, and I don’t even know what that really fully means. That’s just the quick answer of, but it didn’t really, just because you put an old guy in that outfit. If he’s not Indy, it’s just an old guy in an outfit. So I don’t know. I’m going to start my manifesto here, so I dunno.

Dan Heaton: Okay. Well, ending on a more positive note, I mean, you mentioned the trilogy, which I mean, why does it continue the films that you love to resonate so strongly, whether it’s through the films or even in the attractions and everything. Why does the character still feel like something that you really appreciate?

Brandon Kleyla: I think because there hasn’t been anything better, Indy is still the pinnacle of an action adventure. That’s the top of the mountain. I always say that it’s my favorite of the three. But Temple of Doom is the greatest action movie action, adventure movie of all time. From the moment it starts, your hands are sweating. It never lets go; it never lets up. It just keeps, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and big. It’s insane. Seeing Temple of Doom on a big screen is an experience that everyone should get to do. It is insane. You go, oh, they fell out of an airplane on a raft.

Well, that’s silly. Well, the next scene’s going to be even worse. I mean, it just keep going to by the point where they’re on the bridge, you’re literally sitting there sweating. It’s just insanity. But nothing else has been made that nothing else has been made. Like Raiders, they’ve tried and they just come off as knockoffs. So it’s firmly planted its flag in pop culture and our brains, and it’s going to be hard to ever beat it. It’s just how it is.

Dan Heaton: And I think that also connects.

Brandon Kleyla: And same thing for the rides. I mean, same thing for the attractions. I mean, it’s going to be hard to ever have something better than what’s in Anaheim.

Dan Heaton: I agree. Because it’s like all the things had to be in place. Like you said, they designed the ride system at that point. It was new. It was designed for this attraction. It’s like trackless dark rides where one, it can work great for one thing and not great for something else. And the films you had George Lucas, you had a young Lucas, a young Steven Spielberg, you had a fairly young Harrison Ford. Also just at the time that their look at kind of pulp films that was really novel and still kind of feels that way. It’s like happy accidents, but everything has to come together at the right time.

Brandon Kleyla: It’s all lightning in a bottle. I mean, every time mean, and you can capture it more than once. Sure. But it’s rare. It’s tough.

Dan Heaton: Regardless of the new film, I think it’s cool that they’re still going to put the attraction in, and I hope that anything is awesome. It doesn’t have to be the same as Disneyland, might not be as good. I don’t expect they’ll ever do a queue like that again. That’s because that is still…

Brandon Kleyla: I don’t think you have the room to ever do a queue like that. And to that point, as we just said, that queue was designed for that. That queue’s purpose is to get you under the train track and out into the parking lot where the ride box is. So you back yourself into facility demands and benefit from them is amazing. But yeah, I mean, you wouldn’t need to do that at Animal Kingdom. You don’t need to get out of the park. So yeah, it’s interesting. Again, a lightning in a bottle situation. Yeah.

Dan Heaton: Well, for sure. Well, Brandon, this has been really fun to talk, even when we’re not saying positive things, it’s really fun to talk about Indy and dig in just talking about one topic, and I still think you’re the right person to talk with, but I know you are doing still a lot of other things, whether it’s in your full-time career or as Trader Brandon online and everything else. So where can listeners check out what you’re doing or connect with you online or anything?

Brandon Kleyla: Traderbrandon.com is the website and then the Instagram is my biggest social media and it’s just at Trader Brandon.

Dan Heaton: Well, awesome. Well, I will say I’m very excited about some of the things that you are currently working on that we’re going to learn more about soon. It sounds awesome and this has been really fun, so thanks so much for talking with me.

Brandon Kleyla: Yeah, anytime, Dan. Anytime.

Dan Heaton: Well, that was cool. I do want to give a shout out to Brandon once again and his site Trader Brandon, where he has a book, Mystic Libations, which he wrote with actor Todd Stashwick, who was on 12 Monkeys, was recently on Star Trek: Picard, and they wrote a book together with a lot of cool drink ideas, and that’s one of many things that you can find there.

Also wanted to mention, while I was prepping for this show, I did listen to an episode of Dizney Coast to Coast, the podcast done by Jeff DePaoli, and he talked to Stuntman Kevin Brassard, who was one of the first stunt performers that played Indiana Jones in the Epic Stunt Spectacular. And I found that interview to be really interesting and just to remind me of the amount of skill and talent that goes into the stunt performers on that show.